R' Reuven Leuchter gives a weekly Vaad on Yiras Shamayim. I will post my notes on the vaad each week. When R' Leuchter asks a question in Vaad I will post the question and then the answer in one of the following posts. Please feel free to post your thoughts on the question or anything in general about the vaad.
In contrast to past generations, taavos are pursued as a way of life. western culture is such that those who are brought up with in it are encouraged to go after desires without any hesitance. In addition, yiras haonesh is something which we can not easily relate to. Although we may try and live cut off from these bad influences, they are in the air which we breath. Due to our lack of natural hesitance towards going after our desires and our difficulty relating to onesh, working on yiras shamayim must take a different approach from one which may have been taken in the past generation. We will start with a source from the torah on yiras shamayim. "And now Israel, what does G-d want of you? Only that you fear G-d your Lord" (Deuteronomy 10:12) from here chazal learn "All is in the hands of heaven except for the fear of heaven"(berachos 33b) Why is specifically Yiras Shamayim mentioned? Why not Bechira?
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Also, you could ask why Chazal don't say "except the love of Hashem etc." (the continuation of that pasuk).
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with Yona's question, I fail to understand the original.
ReplyDeleteUnless you were asking: Why is speficially yir'as Shamayim mentioned as opposed to bechirah in general?
Observations:
First, the maamar Chazal might be saying that all of our choices boil down to the choice about having yir'ah. Taking Yonah's statement into account, that would mean that ahavas Hashem depends on yir'as Shamayim. Which I think works -- if I didn't realize His significance, why would I love Him?
Second, what about the parallel maamar that ends "chutz mitzinim upachin"?
Three ahavah and yir'ah are middos. It's actually pretty hard to change one's yir'ah, in contrast to changing one's actions. "Tzinim upachin" don't have that problem -- putting on a coat or drinking enough water on a hot day are much easier decisions to make then "I think I'll love someone today" -- or as in this case, Someone.
-micha
Yona and Micha,
ReplyDeleteIf we understand the posuk the way chazal do, it would seem that the only thing we have control of is Yiras Shamayim. This excludes the end of the posuk, loving Hashem.(why is Ahavas Hashem in the hands of heaven?) As far as the parallel gemara, Kesubos 30a, Tosfos explains that the two gemaras are dealing with different things. Berachos is talking about the circumstances that a person is born into while Kesubos is talking about the different things that happen to a person.
-Shlomo
My point was more that the maamar is really about bechirah in general, and saying that all of life's meaningful choices are outcomes of our underlying choice about yir'as Shamayim.
ReplyDeleteAhavas Hashem is a consequence of yir'as Shamayim, and thus of that initial fundamental bechirah. As I wrote in my earlier comment: "Which I think works -- if I didn't realize His significance, why would I love Him?"
The question of relationship between yirah and ahava is a complex one. Interestingly, Rambam in Yesodei Beis mentions ahava first and then yirah. The Yerushalmi, when discussing why need ahava and yirah, mentions ahava first.
ReplyDeleteI am currently going through the Aspeklaria entry on "yiras shomayim". I highly recommed it.
While we're recommending material, I HIGHLY recommend R' Avraham Elya Kaplan's (beloved student of the Alter of Slabodka whose picture is my "avatar") "BeIqvos haYir'ah".
ReplyDeleteThe focus is "gilu bir'adah", and how "vayir'u ha'am es Hashem" naturally leads to "Az Yashir".
-micha
I have seen that piece. Rav Walbe quotes that piece, and discusses some of its ideas at length in chelek 1, beginning of section on Daas Torah.
ReplyDeleteBilvaviNer,
ReplyDeleteThe freinkel edition of the Rambam has a haara in the back explaining that the reason why ahava is mentioned first is because yira is reffering to yiras haromamoos and not yiras hachait (i think the haara is in hilchos tshuva or hilchos daos)
You sure is says in contrast to yir'as hacheit, not yir'as ha'onesh?
ReplyDeleteThe Ramchal's taxonomy, which needn't have been the Rambam's, is:
1- Yir'as haOnesh, which is a useful motivator, but only a prelude to real yir'ah.
2- Yir'as Shamayim, which has two subtypes:
2a- Yir'as hacheit -- fear of doing the wrong thing just because it's the wrong thing
2b- Yir'as haRomemus -- awe of Hashem's Greatness.
Thinking out loud:
Yir'as hacheit logically flows from ahavah. If you love someone, it hurts you to think you could have wronged them. You have a fear of error.
Yir'as haRomemus can get in the way of Ahavas Hashem. G-d's true Romemus makes Him seem remote, Transcendent, Other, and thus harder to feel close to and love.
-micha
I would think that a person would only posses the ability to acquire yiras haromamoos when on an incredibly high darga, if so, would that yira still create a feeling of distance? (bli neder ill re check the haara)
ReplyDeleteI think by definition, thinking of Hashem's Romemus is speaking of how much greater, and thus foreign, He is than we are.
ReplyDelete-micha
I once heard a talmid chacham say that yir'as haromemus is a synthesis between yirah and ahava. Yirah pushes me to withdraw. Ahava pushes me closer. Yir'as haromemus pushes me close, but then I suddenly realize that the other is just too great, so I withdraw.
ReplyDeleteBilvaviNer,
ReplyDeleteMy point wasn't based on sources, but on personal experience. The more I think about Romemus, the further I remove HQBH from anything lovable.
The Rambam's "we can only describe what He isn't" view of G-d makes ahavah very difficult. No?
Yir'as hacheit presumes ahavah, because I wouldn't be upset about wronging Someone I didn't care about.
Yir'as ha'onesh causes withdrawal.
I just don't see how this talmid chakham's description works from a purely hands-on perspective of things.
-micha
I think that it's a question of balance, and not one or the other. A person has a relationship with a Rebbi. An element of that relationship is an incredible love. If that love isn't metigated with romemus, the Rebbi now becomes a buddy and not a Rebbi, and now the person has lost a precious relationship.
ReplyDeleteYerushalmi states that a true ohev can never come to hate. But a yarei, continues the Yerushalmi, can never come to disrespect (lose translation of "בועט"). It seems that a lover can come to disrespect.
The same point is the extreme positions of the philosopher in the Kuzari and an idol worshipper. The former places G-d completely out of reach. The latter, in an attempt to make G-d more close and attainable, completely corrupts Him.
Reb Micha. I would like to add one more thing. You spoke about ahava and yir'as chet as being factors that are more likely to lead to dveikus than focus on romemus. I think that for certain people, you are right. We know that people have different personalities. Some people feel a deeper connection from closeness, but others connect much better when there is a sense of authority, a sense of a certain distance. There is a part of me (and I stress, only a part - I very much appreciate your point about closeness of ahava) that feels very close to Hashem when I consider the fact that I have been zoche to be chosen to serve such a great King, in such a great kingdom.
ReplyDelete